There are those who say that the iron is very Lima.
It is a simple way to attack politically and try to disqualify an iron. There is hardly another candidate who knows both Peru and the general. Although it is an objective fact that the three candidates are from Lima, the truth is that General Williams has lived on the coast, mountains and jungle throughout his military career. And also when he was a child, because his father was a soldier. His mother is from Puno. I think that each one has a different contribution on the plate. Holding onto an objective fact that we are from Lima to try to disqualify the iron is absurd.
The underlying issue is that lately voters vote for someone who identifies with them. And not necessarily for the one they consider the best. It is valid, but it has brought us problems.
I think it’s valid, but there are other forms of identification as well. We are putting forward a proposal based on certain ideas and principles, such as the defense of life, liberty, property and the idea of reestablishing the principle of authority through the application of the force of law. And I think that is what many citizens also identify with.
Jaime de Althaus says that Avanza País’s government plan is the most reformist and liberal.
We start from the premise that political power has to be limited. And that means that the state apparatus has to be reduced, because we have a State that has been growing uncontrollably for the last 15 years, more or less.
And state salaries have also grown.
The payrolls have increased. About 80% of the public budget is consumed to pay payroll and maintain the bureaucratic apparatus. A device that in recent decades has not achieved any concrete benefit for citizens.
Payrolls have not grown proportionally to the improvement in services.
On the contrary, the State has become an obstacle for the people. And instead of having a State allied to the growth of Peruvians, we have a State that places obstacles. They have improved since the 90s, but from a certain point in time, in 2011, there has been no improvement in either the quality or the scope of public services. That is a gigantic problem and we are aware that this can be solved by reducing bureaucracy and the State.
Is the State a bad administrator?
First, it is wrong to misuse taxpayer money and public resources. Because the State does not generate wealth or resources. What the State does is manage the taxpayer’s money and it does it poorly. He misuses it to pay the salaries of a lot of bureaucrats who do not generate concrete benefits for the citizen.
Low efficiency is also corruption.
Only the fact that we have such a large State means that resources are poorly used. And people’s freedom is also restricted. We believe in a small State not only to be efficient, but because a State that takes a long time to make decisions is corrupt. The more bureaucracy there is, the more corruption there is. And we are also aware that, for the State to respect people’s freedom, it has to be reduced. The larger a State is, the more power and control it has, and the more it intervenes in the private decisions of citizens and their lives. And we want not only that there be efficient use of resources, but that the State be respectful of people’s freedom and not interfere in their lives. Don’t let him hinder you.
There is an apparent paradox. The State has grown, but it is also absent in the corners of the country.
Exactly. It is an apparent contradiction. Today we have a gigantic State that does not arrive, precisely because it is gigantic. Because it diverts resources that should be used precisely to have better medical clinics in places where there are none, where schools do not fall to pieces… But those resources are used to maintain a bureaucracy that puts that money in its pocket, but which again is not generating clinics, schools, infrastructure, or roads. We want to reduce the size of the State, eliminate bureaucracy, reduce public payrolls, so that all those resources that are wasted today are directed to generating the services that the State has to provide.
There are key examples with the canon. There are huge resources that are not used or stolen.
There are regional governments that receive hundreds of millions of soles in mining royalties and do not have schools. Cajamarca has the lowest literacy rates in the country with such a high fee. It is evident that the regionalization process, as it was proposed and as it operates today, has not produced results. We have already been regionalizing for 20 years and it is worth making an evaluation. From my point of view, the result has not been positive. We are simply introducing another level of bureaucracy that is not efficient in the use of resources. Health and education cannot depend exclusively on regional governments. That’s what the pandemic showed us.
“I WAS 8 YEARS OLD WHEN THE EMBASSY WAS TAKEN”
Was there meanness towards Williams for being in two heroic events? El Cenepa and Chavín de Huántar.
Of course. It seems extremely petty to me not to recognize the heroism that the commandos, including General Williams, had in the Chavín de Huántar operation, due to the fact that they participated in the Cenepa war.
We are giving a message against heroics.
Exact. This project was proposed by the Executive. It was not born from Avanza País nor from me nor from General Williams. It had that terrible defect: it excluded 32 commandos from Chavín de Huántar for having participated in another extraordinary event, the Cenepa war. And I correct that in the opinion of the Defense Commission, which was approved in plenary by a majority. It is petty to exclude 32 commandos who risked their lives to save the country that was kidnapped by the MRTA just because there was one who is currently a congressman. It must also be clarified that pensions are not a salary. And these recognitions are not remunerations, but extraordinary bonuses in compensation for a heroic act. These commandos have been unfairly persecuted for decades by leftist NGOs.
Meritocracy should prevail. A general is questioned for two heroic acts, but the salaries of officials who do not give evaluations are raised.
Of course. And there should also be justice. They are heroic acts. Chavín de Huántar is the most successful rescue operation in our history and a global case study. Not recognizing the extraordinary is not right.
That operation saved his father.
I was 8 years old when the embassy was taken over. I have memories of that horrible, quite stressful time. Perhaps my case is the most obvious, because my father was kidnapped and was the first on Cerpa Cartolini’s list. But he was one of 72 hostages who were kidnapped. 72 families kidnapped. And deep down, an entire country that was kidnapped and extorted by the terrorist violence of the MRTA.
It is the metaphor that Avanza País has used.
It’s true. Today we are victims of three great scourges and enemies, which are corruption, illegality and the bureaucracies that are entrenched in the State. Illegality is illegal economies, crime, delinquency and extortion gangs. We have also been governed by politicians who have been soft on these enemies, who have been afraid to confront them and who have even negotiated with them, as we have seen with illegal mining this last year.
What strategy will they have against illegal mining?
There are illegal miners who are part of criminal organizations and mine in areas that are absolutely prohibited. And nothing is done against them. That is not a public policy problem: it is a problem of lack of law enforcement, of not enforcing the principle of authority and the rule of law above criminality and illegality. Lack of political decision. We have strength and we are not afraid to confront these criminal gangs. We are not going to compromise with illegality.
Does Williams have strength? A certain right sees him as soft because of his role as president of Congress.
The role of president of Congress requires dialogue, consensus and agreement. Many people confuse being assertive and having authority with yelling all the time and being a bully, which General Williams is not. He is an extremely firm and upright person. When Pedro Castillo carried out the coup d’état, Williams decided to advance the vacancy vote at a time when we did not know the result of that coup. And that requires firmness and courage. And you don’t need to yell or be a bully.
He mentioned 2011. That’s when the economic slowdown began. Conga and Tía María stop.
Reinfo was approved during the Ollanta Humala government, which was openly anti-mining. They favored illegal mining and attacked large-scale mining. And they made the State grow. The left has an enormous share of responsibility for what we are experiencing now.
Would they privatize Petroperú and Sedapal?
We are in favor of the privatization of Petroperú. It has become a bottomless pit where billions of Peruvian soles are lost without any result. If bankrupt companies were privatized in the 90s, I don’t see why it couldn’t be done now. With Sedapal it is more complex, but there are private administration schemes that could work better.
What do you think of Fujimori? You worked with Pedro Olaechea, facing the Vizcarra coup.
It is evident that he carried out a coup d’état. But I think there is a big difference between the government of Alberto Fujimori and that of Martín Vizcarra. The economic reforms have guaranteed us sustained growth for three decades, they have caused more than 6 million Peruvians to leave poverty behind and 2 million Peruvians to leave extreme poverty behind. The economic chapter has been unquestionably positive for the country. Martín Vizcarra’s government was absolutely disastrous, it let hundreds of thousands of people die during the pandemic
So why not vote for Fujimorism?
Avanza País is a modern right, less traditional than Fuerza Popular, which is more pro-establishment and status quo. We are willing to confront the established way of doing politics. We do not want a policy that serves politicians, but rather the people.
There have been populist laws in Congress. Does Fuerza Popular no longer protect the model?
There is a lot of populism. We have been extremely firm when it comes to defending the economic chapter of the Constitution. In Peru there have been right-wing personalities, not really right-wing organizations with a structure. We have had a so-called right wing that, instead of defending freedom on principle, has believed that by negotiating with the left it would be able to carry out business in peace. They abandoned politics. We have to get it back.
“Three films have been made about Javier Heraud. It is no coincidence”
Was his law misinterpreted?
The cinema law was approved and the regulations are pending publication. It sought to open the door to private financing so that films would not depend on subsidies from the Ministry of Culture. There was a lot of resistance because there are rings who have lived off the Mincul bottle and have protested when it was taken away from them.
The film Chavín de Huántar is a mixed example, with private and public money. And it was a box office success.
I understand that you have not received financing from Mincul. It is a very good example. It was a resounding success without subsidies or fees. We raise the percentage to regional cinema. It is a fairer distribution.
Is there an ideological issue?
It is evident that there is an ideological line. Three films have been made about Javier Heraud. It’s not a coincidence.
Whoever played Cerpa Cartolini says he would vote again…
By Pedro Castillo… We must combat the arrogance of those who believe that they are owners of Peruvians’ money and do not have to be held accountable because they are “artists.”
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